Interview with Credo Mutwa (continued).

Sir, in the country called Zimbabwe, where I had my encounter in 1959, there is also another creature. This is the most amazing creature, and I saw it once, and so did several other people, some Black and some White, who were with me. This creature is a huge creature, and shaped exactly like a gorilla, but it is unlike a gorilla, which often walks on its feet, as well as on its knuckles. The creature I’m talking about, sir, stands about 8 feet or 9 feet high, and is built exactly like a gorilla, but its body is very powerful. Its shoulders are very wide, it’s neck is very thick. It is covered with thick, rough fur, like no other wild animal in Africa.

It is a humanoid creature, with thighs and legs and feet, as well as arms and hands which look exactly like those of a human being, only covered with a heavy mat of dark-brown fur. This creature, sir, is known as Ogo by the people of Zimbabwe. And schools of people have seen this creature, hundreds over the many generations. Some of these creatures have been seen right here in South Africa, in isolated bushy and mountainous places. And these Ogo are, detail for detail, exactly like what the Native American people of the Northwestern United States call a Sasquatch or Bigfoot.

In fact, I say it is the same creature and we have it right here in southern Africa. It is also exactly the same creature, but with a totally different skin color, as the one that is seen by the people of Nepal on the slopes of the Himalaya mountains, the creature that is called a Yeti.

Now, then, the last creature, sir, a creature which is so well known in South Africa, and elsewhere in Africa, that if you mention its name, people smile. It is called a Tokoloshe. Every African knows what a Tokoloshe is. Some call it Tikoloshe.

It looks like a very nasty looking teddy-bear in appearance, in that it’s head is like that of a teddy-bear, but it has got a thick, sharp, bony ridge on top of its head. The ridge goes from above its forehead to the back of its head, and with this ridge it can knock down an ox by butting it with its head.

This creature causes the Black people in certain places to raise their beds on bricks, one brick laid on top of the other one, about 3 feet above the ground. And you find this all over South Africa. This Tokoloshe likes to play with children, and has been seen hundreds of times by school children, in various parts of South Africa, even in recent times.

Sometimes it will terrorize children by scratching them as they sleep, leaving long, parallel scratches on a child’s back and upon a child’s thighs, scratches that become infected and itch terribly.

About two years ago, a creature like this terrorized a whole school of children in Soweto, near Johannesburg. And the school children called it pinky-pinky. Now, this creature is not only known in South Africa amongst Black people, it is also known, sir, amongst Polynesian people of Hawaii, and other islands in the Pacific. These people lift their huts, their grass houses, on stilts, to the height exactly that Africans lift their bed. When you ask a Polynesian, “Why do you built your huts like this?” The Polynesian will say, “We want to protect ourselves from Tiki.”

Now, this is interesting, sir-that a creature exactly like the one seen in South Africa is also seen on some Pacific islands, and the name by which it is known in the Pacific, Tiki, is very close to the African word Tikiloshe, or Tokoloshe.

One day I hope to share more of this information with your readers, but my appeal, again, is this: Please investigate! Please, let us investigate! Let us stop being too skeptical. Excessive skepticism is just as dangerous and as evil as gullibility.

Nobody can tell me that aliens don’t exist. Let someone tell me, what is the meaning of this hole in my side? Let someone tell me, why is it that after I had been mated to that strange creature, in that strange place, my organ of manhood swelled horribly, and for many years after that I couldn’t make love to an ordinary woman, properly. Why? If that was a figment of my imagination, how can a figment of one’s imagination leave you with scars and cracks on your male organ, some of which have not healed to this date? Let such people answer me that question.

We must investigate, sir, because there is every sign that the alien creatures sharing this planet with us are getting desperate. Why? Because, you see, there is a great fight shaping up, and anyone who thinks deeply about such things can see this fight coming.

What am I talking about? Sir, until 30 or 40 years ago, very few people cared about the environment. Very few people were concerned about the destruction of the rain forests in Africa and elsewhere. Very few people were concerned when White hunters, who, at that time were regarded as heroes, massacred Africa’s animals in the thousands. Very few people were concerned when the great nations of the world, such as the United States, Russia, Britain, and France, openly tested nuclear weapons in many parts of the world.

Today there are people who would spit at a big-game hunter if he showed himself in a hotel and announced what he was. Today a big-game hunter is no longer looked upon as a hero, but rather as a murderer. Today there are men and women, Black and White, who are prepared to risk their lives to save trees, to save animals, and to stop the insanity of testing nuclear weapons.

Sir, what does this tell you? It tells you that, after many thousands of years of being dominated by alien creatures, human beings are starting to fight back. Human beings are starting to care about the world in which they live and in which they find themselves. But, the aliens, the Chitauli, the Mantindane-call them what you will-are not going to take that lying down. They are going to punish us, as they did centuries before.

The aliens once destroyed a nation whose name has come down to us Africans as the nation of Amariri. It is said that the kings of Amariri, this fabulous country which we believed lay beyond the setting of the Sun, were refusing to do what the Chitauli were telling them to do.

The kings, at that time, were refusing to sacrifice their children to the Chitauli. They were refusing to make war on fellow human-beings, in order to sustain the Chitauli, with their god’s image.

It is said that the Chitauli brought down a fire from Heaven. They took fire from the Sun itself and they used it to burn that great civilization away. They caused earthquakes and tidal waves and destroyed the great civilization of the Red people of the long green hair, who are said to have been the first people ever to be created on this Earth. It is said that the Chitauli allowed only a few surviving people to escape the destruction of Amariri, and that they are prepared to do this again in the very near future.

I’m worried about what is going to happen in other countries in the world. All these earthquakes, which have caused the destruction of human life in the Middle East and in parts of Africa and India, why does my heart feel frightened when I read about all this? These earthquakes are happening with unnatural regularity now, in Egypt, in Armenia, and one of these earthquakes was so powerful, it went right through the planet Earth and caused a very sacred rock in Namibia, a rock known as the Finger of God, which has been standing for tens of thousands of years, to collapse in a heap of rubble. And when that rock collapsed, I received many worried letters from sangomas who believed that because this rock had fallen, then the end of the world was very, very near.

Is there a question, please?

Martin: I read your poem, your pledge. In your pledge you mention the name Jabulon. Can you explain who that is?

Credo Mutwa: Jabulon, sir, is a very strange god. He is supposed to be the leader of the Chitauli. He is a god, to my great surprise, which I find certain groups of White people, especially, worshipping. We have known about Jabulon for many, many centuries, we Black people. But I am surprised that there are White people who worship this god, and these people, amongst them are people whom many have blamed for all the things that have happened on this Earth, namely, the Freemason people. We believe that Jabulon is the leader of the Chitauli. He is the Old One. And one of his names, in the African language, sir, is Umbaba-Samahongo-“the lord king, the great father of the terrible eyes”-because we believe that Jabulon has got one eye which, if he opens it, you die if he looks at you.

It is said, sir, the Umbaba ran away from an eastern land during a power struggle with one of his sons, and he took refuge in Central Africa, where he hides in a cave, deep underground. And it is an amazing thing, sir-it is said that under the Mountains of the Moon in Zaire is this great city of copper, of many thousands of shining buildings. There dwells the god Umbaba or Jabulon. And this god is waiting for the day when the surface of the Earth will be cleared of human beings so that he, and his children, the Chitauli, can come out and enjoy the heat of the Sun.

And, one day, sir, I had a very unexpected visit while I was living in Soweto, near Johannesburg. I was visited by priests from Tibet.

One of these priests, I’m sure you have met him or you know of him. His name is Akyong Rinpochce. He is one of the leading Tibetan priests in England who was exiled with the Dalai Lama, and he visited me one day while I was in my medicinal village in Soweto. And one of the things that Akyong Rinpochce asked me was, “Do I know of a secret city which is somewhere in Africa, a city made of copper?”

I said, “But, Akyong, you are describing the city of Umbaba, the city of the unseen god, the god who hides underground. How do you know about this?” And Akyong Rinpochce, who is a very serious investigator of strange phenomena, told me that at one time the great Lama left Tibet with a group of followers and came to Africa searching for this city. And the Lama, and his followers, were never seen again. They never returned back to Tibet.

Now, sir, we have got stories in central and southern Africa about little Yellow men who came to Africa looking for the city of Umbaba, the city from which you cannot return alive. What is amazing, sir-I don’t know whether this falls within the orbit of your newspaper, but-there are very, very disturbing stories which I have followed-up here in South Africa, stories which make no sense to me.

(Break for a few minutes.)

Credo Mutwa: Hello.

Martin: Yes, Credo. May I just say that I am very appreciative of your taking this time to talk with me, and I realize it’s difficult.

Credo Mutwa: I appreciate the honor that you are doing me, much more than you realize. And I know how White people often treat anyone who talks on the subject that I am talking about, as weird.

Sir, I really shouldn’t be exposing myself to public ridicule, as I am, but, our people ARE DYING! Not only do we have problems with drugs in southern Africa, not only do we have problems with crime in my country, which is getting a thousand times more vicious than it ever was before, not only do we have problems with AIDS, sir, but we also have got weird problems which often come our way-problems which, when you study them together, show you that something unearthly is going on in southern Africa. Can I share this thing with you, sir?

Martin: Yes, please.

Credo Mutwa: Sir, according to my culture it is very rude for one man simply to talk to another man without giving that other man the chance to talk back to him. So, out of respect of your paper and of you, I would like to ask you, in your country, the United States, do you have strange stories about underground structures which are built-because we are having similar stories in South Africa, and with us they are having very strange results, indeed.

Martin: Yes, there are many stories of underground-we call them underground bases, actually, and, in fact, in the newspaper I was associated with earlier, we published an entire edition on exposing the locations of those underground bases. Not only that....

Credo Mutwa: There is exactly the same thing here in South Africa, and there has been for a number of years. I was able to confirm one to my own satisfaction, but I have failed to confirm others. You see, sir, a man like me, who walks two worlds-the African mystical world, as well as the modern, down-to-Earth world-must be careful of what he says. But, about 5 years ago, I was living in the little town of Masikeng, a very historical town which was the site of a famous siege by the Boors, in the war of 1899-1902.

It was in this town, sir, that the Scout movement, the Boy Scout movement, was founded by Captain Powell. I’m sure you’ve heard about him. But, while I was living in Masinkeng, a number of people came to me, ordinary tribesmen and women, sir, some of them totally illiterate. These people complained to me that their relatives had mysteriously disappeared. They wanted me to divine where their relatives have gone to. And, I asked these people, all of whom did not know each other, where did your relatives disappear?

These people had told me an incredible story, and it was this: Not far from Masikeng there is a famous place which I’m sure you have heard about, a place which we call the Las Vegas of South Africa. This is the famous casino/hotel complex called Sun City.

Martin: Yes.

Credo Mutwa: I was told that under Sun City strange mining operations were in progress, deep underground, and that many of the Africans who worked in those mines disappeared and never returned home again, although their paychecks kept on being sent to their family. The men never returned home, as ordinary miners do.

Now, I looked into this phenomenon, sir, and, like a fool, I refused to believe it. And then more stories came my way, because when an African is in deep trouble, he or she always looks for a sangoma to find the reason behind the trouble.

Sir, the other story was this, and this one I found to be a shocking truth-that there was construction across the border from South Africa, in the land known as Botswana. There, the Americans were working with African labor, who had been sworn to secrecy. The Americans were building there a secret airport which can take modern jet fighters. Now, I couldn’t believe this. Again, I was told that many had mysteriously disappeared there-ordinary tribesmen, sir, not even educated Black people; ordinary workers have gone missing. And when their relatives try to find out where they had gone, they are met with stone-cold silence.

Now, I wanted to have a look at this thing, and one thing that made me act was that a strange story swept through South Africa, that a South African jet aircraft, a jet fighter, had shot down a flying saucer. And the jet fighter had been scrambled from this secret base.

Now, sir, I decided to investigate because my credibility as a shaman and as a sangoma was at stake. I went to Botswana. It was very easy. You can still cross through the wire and get into that country. The borders are not as heavily sealed in certain places as many people would think.

I went there with some friends and I found that there was such a base in Botswana, not underground, but on the surface. It is an aircraft base, but Black people are afraid of even being seen near there because it is said that you will disappear if you get too close to the place, and the man who took us there didn’t want to come near that place. I studied it from far away, and it does exist, and the man said if we got any nearer to the place, we would disappear. Which is a very odd thing, sir, because there are many military bases all over South Africa, and in Botswana, but this particular one fills the local people with deep terror. Why this would be so, I’m still struggling to find out, even now, because there are too many strange things going on in my country, and they are affecting the lives of many of our people very badly indeed.

Now, there is another thing, sir: It is that one of the things that the Chitauli like to do in their underground caves, where many fires are always kept ablaze, we are told, is that when a Chitauli gets sick and starts to lose a large area of skin on his body, it is said that there is a disease that the Chitauli suffer from which causes them to lose large areas of their skin, leaving only raw flesh.

When the Chitauli gets sick this way, a young girl, a virgin, is usually kidnapped by the servant of the Chitauli and is brought to the underground place. There the girl is bound, hand and foot, and wrapped in a golden blanket, and is forced to lie next to the Chitauli, the sick Chitauli, week after week, being well fed and well cared for, but kept bound hand and foot, and only released at certain times to relieve herself. It is said that after the sick Chitauli shows signs of getting better, then the human girl is manipulated into trying to escape. She is given a chance to escape, a chance which is really not a chance. Then, when the girl escapes, she runs, but she is pursued over a long distance underground by flying creatures which are made of metal, and she is recaptured when she reaches the height of fear and exhaustion.

Then she is laid on an altar, usually a rough rock, flat on top. Then, she is cruelly sacrificed, sir, and her blood is drunk by the sick Chitauli, which then recovers. But, the girl must not be sacrificed until she is very, very, very frightened, because if she is not frightened, it is said that her blood will not save the sick Chitauli. It must be the blood of a very frightened human being, indeed.

Now, this habit of chasing a victim was also practiced by ordinary African cannibals, sir. In Zulu-land, in the last century, there were cannibals who used to eat people, and their descendants, even today, will tell you, if they trust you, that the flesh of the human being who has been frightened and made to run over a great distance, while trying to escape, tastes far better than the flesh of someone who was simply killed.

Now, sir, some time ago here in South Africa-and it is still an ongoing process-5 White girls disappeared. They were school-girls, sir. These school-girls were, every one of them, a highly talented child-either a child who showed signs of developing spiritual power, or a child who was a leader of her class in one particular thought or subject of learning. Five such children disappeared in South Africa. It was a very big story in the newspaper and, at one time, White people came to me and persuaded me to try and trace these children.

And one day a White man brought to me a rubber toy belonging to a White child who had disappeared. And I took the rubber toy in my hands and I noticed that the creature’s eyes appeared to move. It was as if the rubber toy, a toy dinosaur, was about to burst into tears. I felt very bad, as if I could stand up and run away. And then I told this White man, “Listen to me: The child who held this toy is dead. What are you trying to do to me? This child is dead. I feel it.”

And the White man, who was a television producer, took the toy, the school books, and the jersey, and he went away. And, sure enough, the White school child was found dead, buried in a shallow grave next to a road.

Now, other people came to me asking for my help in finding their missing children. Are they dead? Are they alive? Before I could do anything, sir-at that time I still had a telephone in my home-my telephone started ringing and people with very angry voices, White people voices, shouted at me and told me to stop helping those people. They told me that if I don’t stop, acid would be thrown into my wife’s face, and that my children would be murdered, one after the other.

And, sure enough, sure enough, my youngest son was brutally stabbed, almost to death, one day, by mysterious people whom his friends later told me had been White-skinned people. And so, I stopped, sir.

I am told, reliably, that over 1,000 children disappear in South Africa, almost every month. And they disappear, never to be seen again. Many people, especially in the newspaper field, think that this is the result of child prostitution rackets. But I do not think so. The children-if you check the history of many of these children, they were not ordinary street children, sir. They are school children who stand out in their class, because of certain subjects at which they are good, or, who stand out in their class because of thoughts which they are good at.

Not only that, sir, but ordinary women have disappeared this way, in Masikeng, also, at more or less the same time that the 5 White children disappeared. In Masikeng, two Black school teachers, female school teachers, disappeared in their car and were never seen again. But I don’t want to burden you, sir, with this terrible story.

But let me tell you one last thing: After the disappearance of the 5 White school children, the police arrested a priest, a reverend of the White Reform Church, Reverend Van Rooyen. It was said that it was Van Rooyen who was responsible for the disappearance of these poor White school kids. And, he had been assisted by his girlfriend, who hand-picked these children. Before Van Rooyen could appear in court, a very strange thing happened. He and his girlfriend were shot in their little vehicle, a little 4x4 truck. And, after they had been shot, the truck managed to come to a stop-a thing that a moving truck never does-and I was told, afterwards, by a White woman who knew Van Rooyen, that Van Rooyen and his woman had not committed this crime as the police had said to the newspapers.

They had actually been murdered. Why? Because Van Rooyen was found with a gunshot wound in his right temple, and yet, all of the people who knew him knew that he had been a left-handed man. So, who murdered Van Rooyen and his woman? It is one of the biggest and the ugliest mysteries in South Africa to date.

There is more, much more along these lines, but I won’t waste your time with it.

Martin: When we were talking about the Greys, you talked about the Chitauli. You had described them, the reptilians-now correct me if I’m wrong-were you describing them as tall, thin, large-headed, large-eyed beings?

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir. They are tall. They walk with a-you see, the Grey aliens walk with a jerking motion, sir, as if there is something wrong with their legs. But, the Chitauli walk very gracefully, like trees gently swaying in the wind.

They are tall. They have large heads. Some of them have got horns all around their heads. Now, let me express amazement, there exists-that in one of the films that recently appeared in South Africa, a Star Wars film, the latest one, shows a character EXACTLY like a Chitauli, exactly! It’s got horns all around it’s head. These are the warrior Chitauli.

The royal Chitauli have got no horns around their head, but have got a darker ridge reaching from above their forehead to their back. They are very graceful creatures, we are told, sir, but they have got-their little finger is a claw which is a very sharp, straight claw, which they use to punch into human noses, in order to drink human brains in one of their rituals.

Martin: Now, are they fair skinned?

Credo Mutwa: They are not pink skinned. They are white-skinned, like paper, almost like certain types of cardboard. Their skin is like that, it is the skin, definitely, of scaly, reptile-like creatures. Their foreheads are very large, bulging, and they look highly, highly intelligent.

Martin: Now, it’s been said-I’ve heard that these beings are very controlling and they thrive on “divide and conquer”.

Credo Mutwa: Yes, they do, sir. They set human being against human being. I could give you many amusing examples, using some African language, how the Chitauli are said to have divided human beings. They like-do you know who they like, sir? They like religious fanatics.

Martin: (Laughter)

Credo Mutwa: Ones who are burdened by too much religion are very popular with the Chitauli.

Martin: Well, now, I can’t help but wonder if the Chitauli are prevalent in the United States because of the large number of underground bases. In the United States, alone, the numbers of missing children are so astronomically high that the White-slave trade does not answer those questions.

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir, I agree. But, I’m sorry, sir, I feel that it is in Africa that something very funny is designed to happen. Let me tell you what happened to me, recently, sir. We still have a little time. I won’t be long, one minute or less.

Martin: No, no-that’s fine.

Credo Mutwa: When I started talking to Mr. David Icke, and it was (when) Mr. Icke started speaking about me in Cape Town, I received a visit from 3 White people who pretended to be from South America. These people told me that something is going to happen on the 9th of this month, on 9-9-99. They said that this was going to happen in Lake Titicaca, a place which I once visited about 2 years ago.

Martin: A very special place.

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir. And then, these people told me, when we were speaking-these people, sir, speaking through an interpreter-told me that Africa is the country where something is going to happen soon which will decide the fate of all humankind.

And then, we parted on very friendly words, sir, but these people had left me a letter which I did not open until a few hours after they had left. And in this letter was written that I should not attend David Icke’s talk, and that a strange person called Alia Czar was watching me. I don’t know who Alia Czar is.

And they said to me-these people had said to me when we met-that they were under a great lord called Melchizedek. And, after I’d read this threatening letter, which threatened that if I talked, my wife, who is sick of cancer in hospital, is going to die if I talked. Then, I began to wonder. Who were these people?

Then, because I’ve been to South America before, I found that the Spanish language with which they were speaking was different from the language, the Spanish which is spoken in South America. These people were using Spanish from Spain, and not the slightly weakened Spanish from South America.

Even now, sir, that threat is still hanging over my head and, may I point out, sir, a strange thing which whoever you will send to me one day will see for themself: my wife is sick of cancer in the hospital, which is the largest hospital in South Africa, sir. And in one of the x-rays taken of my wife’s womb, a strange metal device was seen-of a kind which has puzzled doctors. I spoke to my wife. I asked her, “Who put this object, which the x-rays have seen, in her womb.”

My wife said nobody had ever touched her, and nobody had ever inserted anything into her. But this artifact, sir, which is clearly marked in the x-ray, and is clearly indicated with an arrow, is first seen in one x-ray plate, disappears for the next 2 plates, and is seen on the 4th plate again. I’ve been wondering very, very much about this.

No matter what we may think, sir, there are strange things going on in this world and they require an agent, investigation, and explanation. What is this strange device, which the doctors cannot identify, doing inside the uterus of a 65-year-old woman? My wife is suffering, and I can lose her at any time now, because I can’t even get her out of hospital. Who put this device in her uterus, and why? I will never know the answer, not in this world.

Martin: I’m very sorry to hear about your wife having cancer. I just lost my mother last year to cancer and I know that is a very painful struggle.

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir, it is.

Martin: So, I am very sorry that you are going through that.

Credo Mutwa: Through the training as a Zulu step-son warrior, we have got something like the Japanese Samuri which we call the Kaway, which is a Sun warrior. When a Sun warrior, who is trained like I am, undergoes a terrible experience, he must channel the pain caused by that experience into cold, battle anger, in order to overcome the grief he feels.

And, at this moment, sir, I am aggrieved about what is happening in my country; about what’s happening to my people; about what’s happening to my wife, who is also my half-sister. You see, ours is what was called a sacred marriage between a man, a sanusi, a shaman, and his half-sister. And, the wife I’m about to lose is my half-sister. Our father is one man, although our mothers were different.

You know, sir, I feel a cold rage that Africa is being destroyed. I feel, sir, a cold rage that my people are being destroyed by forces which, when you study them, you find are totally alien. And, here, let me share with you, sir, one last thing, please, which will make your readers understand why I am feeling what I am feeling now.

As you know, sir, there is AIDS going like a silent fire through South Africa. And, last year, I found, to my horror, that one of my six children, my 21-year-old daughter, is HIV positive. Sir, I feel a cold rage in my heart that we are allowing an alien disease that came from we know not where, a disease which anyone, with any thought, realizes was manufactured somewhere in order to destroy large swaths of humankind.

When I look into my daughter’s eyes, sir, I feel a chill. I’ve got two daughters, grown-up, young women, and she is the last. The other one is short and dumpy, and a loving-a lovely African girl with a big backside and big breasts. But this girl, who is dying of this disease, is slender, dark-skinned like my mother, and she is very beautiful, even by European standards-and I cannot look into my child’s eyes and see what I read there: a resignation, a why? Why?

If AIDS was a natural disease, sir, I would accept it, because man must live side-by-side with illness in this world. But a child, you spend years educating and bringing-up, suddenly being snuffed-out before your eyes, by a disease made by evil people, I want to tear somebody’s eyes out for what I’ve seen happening. I’m sorry, sir.

Martin: I understand.

Credo Mutwa: We must look into this thing. Is there one last question you would like to ask?

Martin: Yes. I would like to go back to the copper city for a moment. It would seem that this Jabulon would be the equivalent of what, in the West, we call Satan. Would you say that?

Credo Mutwa: I think so, yes, sir. He is the chief of the Chitauli. And, like Satan, he lives in a house underground where great fires are always lighted, to keep him warm. Because, we are told, that after the great war they fought with God, they became cold in their blood and they cannot stand freezing weather, which is why they require human blood, and also they require fire always to be kept working where they are.

Martin: Well it’s been said, in the recent video tape that David Icke has put out, that the shape-shifting reptilians, in order to maintain their façade, their cover, their human-like appearance, they must drink human blood. And there is something about the blond gene, apparently. Now, I don’t know what...

Credo Mutwa: Yes. Mr. David Icke shared that a little with me, sir. He told me that, repeatedly, golden-haired people get sacrificed by the Chitauli , and then I told him, in my turn, what I know from Africa.

You see, sir, not all Africans have got black hair. There are Africans who are regarded as very holy, as very sacred. These are Africans who are born with natural red hair. These Africans are believed to be very spiritually powerful. Now, in Africa, such people, albeamers or red-headed Africans, were the most victims of sacrifice, especially when they were just entering maturity-whether they were males or females.

Martin: Now, when you were able to see the eyes beneath the Grey alien’s exterior, would you say that those were reptilian beings underneath that cover?

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir, exactly. I will tell you why. There is a snake here in South Africa which is called a Mamba.

Martin: Yes, very deadly.

Credo Mutwa: It is one of the most poisonous snakes that you can find. It has got eyes EXACTLY like those of a Chitauli and of a Mantindane. And so has a Python, sir. A crocodile’s eyes are very ET-looking, and they don’t look as hypnotic and as piercing as those of a Mamba or a Python. If you can image, sir, the eye of a Python, magnified about 10 times, then you have got exactly what a Chitauli’s eyes look like.

Martin: Well, it is said, and I believe this to be true, that there is a-for lack of a better way of putting it-there is a war between Light and Dark, Good and Evil, on this planet.

Credo Mutwa: Yes. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Yes.

Martin: And there certainly is a God in His Universe, a God of Light and Justness.

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir.

Martin: How does your culture, how do you view the intervention of God through His Hosts, through His Representatives? In all things there must be a balance, and that includes on planet Earth-as above, so below. How do you see-for many readers, they can read about this all, and it sounds very frightening and very, almost, hopeless-and yet, there certainly is hope. So, I would like to end this interview on a message of hope.

Credo Mutwa: Yes. Please, sir, there IS hope! Look, first of all, there IS a God above us. And this God is more real than most of us believe. God is not a figment of someone’s imagination. God is not something dreamt-up by old men and old women in prehistoric times. God exists, sir. But standing between us and God are creatures who claim to be gods. And these creatures we must get rid of in order to get closer to God.

Sir, I have lived a long and very strange life, and I can tell you that there is a God, and He is intervening. However, we see God’s intervening as slow, but wait: Who would have thought that less than 30 years ago, not one person cared about the environment. Who put this sudden Godliness within all of us?

Today, sir, people everywhere in the world are standing up and fighting for the rights of women and for the rights of children. Who has put these ideas into our minds? Not the Chitauli, not any demonic entity, it is God acting in the shadow and making us strong and able to resist these ugly creatures.

You see, sir, God seems to work slowly in our eyes, because God lives in a time-sphere totally different from our own. God is there. God is working. And it is God, sir, who, for the first time in our existence, is making us aware of these things, making us aware that on this world we are not alone, and that we must be soul-ly and solely responsible for our actions, and we must neutralize these alien beings who for years have led us around in circles.

Human beings have never known any real progress, sir, because there have been forces that have been stopping us from reaching our rightful position in the universe, and I mean the Chitauli, I mean the Mantindane, I mean the Midzimu. We must stop regarding these creatures as super-human creatures. They are just parasites who need us more than we need them. And only a fool will ever deny the fact that we are not the only intelligent species of being that this planet has produced.

All over Africa there is overwhelming evidence that once there were gigantic human beings who walked this planet, in the days of the dinosaur. There are footprints in granite, each one 6 foot long by 3 ½ wide, footprints of mature human beings, sir, which date back thousands of years, millions of years. Where did these giants go to? Who knows; the dinosaurs may have produced an intelligent race, a race which deceives us into thinking that it comes from the stars, when in fact it is part of this planet on which we live.

There is hope, and the hope is very bright. A Christ-child is being born in all of us, but like all deaths, the death of the Light-child (the death of the old-self prior to transformation into “Christness”) is going to be attended by great danger, as the enemy is going to be driven into desperation. The enemy will make mistakes and we will conquer him in God’s sacred name. That is what I believe, sir, and that is what I’m going to hold-on believing until my last breath.

Martin: And that is a perfect place to end this-on that thought, on that note.

Now, let me just say, just for you, since 1974, I have seen many, many spaceships, close-up (though not inside nor by abduction). I have experienced-in the mountains of southern Oregon-I have come across Bigfoot footprints...

Credo Mutwa: Ah-hah!

Martin: ...by a river where I was camping. I have heard the Bigfoot in the mountains at night. I have heard their cries...

Credo Mutwa: Ya-ya! You see?

Martin: ...from one mountain to another. These are things I have experienced. I KNOW these things are real!

Credo Mutwa: Yes, sir. Then, I speak to a fellow warrior, and I say, “We shall overcome”, as the American Marines used to sing during the Second World War.

Martin: Yes, and during the Vietnam War.

Credo Mutwa: We will overcome, we will overcome, but skeptics must stop laughing, and fools must stop calling these aliens, god. There is only ONE God, and He or She or It is the One who created us, and not some impostor who came from somewhere else to hide behind us and to drink our children’s blood. Amen, sir.

Martin: Yes, absolutely right. Credo, please know that I deeply appreciate what you have done and the courage of just speaking frankly. It’s past time to hold onto these things, and it’s time to just speak The Truth. And for those who don’t believe or even consider possibilities, well, it’s just too bad.

Credo Mutwa: Exactly, and also to confront people with the fact that there is no reason to fear anything. If we go from a perspective of making information available that should be available to every single person on this blooming planet, why the hell are they trying to threaten you to keep quiet? If it’s so ridiculous, let it be. Stop assassinating and ridiculing and destroying people by churning-up fear. This is the perspective I come from, and I’m sure David, as well, and obviously you, as well, do too. I don’t have fear anymore.

It’s time that we speak out and that we acquire a consciousness-a global, common consciousness-and get this thing to the front. Thank you, so much, I really appreciate it.

Martin: Absolutely right. Thank you.

[Editor’s note: Rick Martin may be reached directly at the email address rickm@tminet.com or by writing to: Rick Martin c/o The SPECTRUM Newspaper, 9101 West Sahara Ave., PMB 158, Las Vegas, NV 89117.]